One of the golden rules of swingerdom is communication, being forthcoming and open with your significant other(s) and with your potential swinging partner(s). Communication is essential for everyone to feel safe and comfortable and to enjoy the experience, both during and after. Without open and honest communication with your partner, bad feelings can fester. Trust can be damaged. When it comes to our feelings, Erin and I share very easily. However, opening up about fantasies and desires has been a bit more challenging for us.
We’ve gotten much better, but during those early years of our marriage, we didn’t explore fantasies or kinks much. It’s funny to think that in college we were known as the kinky ones. We had sex toys: vibrators, handcuffs, cat o’ nine-tails, oh my! What freaks we were!
But really, back then, amongst our college friends, that was kinky. It wasn’t long after college that we had our first group sex experience, which pretty much sealed us and that other couple as the super-freaks of our friend circle. Not that we ever told any of our vanilla friends about our adventures with K and B.
It’s not like we didn’t talk to each other about sex or about fantasies, but we glossed over the topics quickly. Embarrassment and shame made it hard for us to open up to each other. We skirted around things. Gave certain acts a little nod, like “yeah, ok, that’s a thing…sure.” And then never explored more.
In many cases, our own fantasies and desires weren’t yet known or well-formed enough to even discuss.
We’re Not Alone in This
We’re not the only happily married couple who had trouble opening up about fantasies and desires.
I seem to recall Mr. and Mrs. Jones of the We Gotta Thing podcast saying in the early podcasts that they hadn’t talked fantasies and desires with each other much. In a more recent episode, Episode 68, Mr. Jones notes that, in the lifestyle, with lifestyle friends, “you can talk about your sex life. And you can talk about sex toys. You can talk about fantasies. Who else do you talk about that stuff with? Some people don’t even–like you and I didn’t really even talk about that a lot between the two of us until we got into the lifestyle.” Mrs. Jones ponders this and says, “I would say the first 20 years of our marriage. Then we started talking about that stuff. And then that stuff started including other people.” (43:40)
Mrs. Cajun of the Swinging Cajuns describes their own journey in their blog. Mrs. Cajun says that, despite having a solid, loving relationship, they weren’t talking about fantasies and desires. An affair opened up the floodgates for discussion, which then led them to the lifestyle.
Those in the lifestyle might have already hit this groove. At least, I hope they have. If a couple is out meeting other people for sexy fun times, I hope they have already had conversations with each other about what they like, what they want to see, what they hope happens, and what they are comfortable with.
Of course, there are a lot more kinks, fantasies, and desires out there than just swinging/lifestyle. Even swingers can be holding things back from each other.
Why Was It So Hard Talk About Fantasies and Desires?
Looking back, we’ve identified a few roadblocks for us.
Shane’s a Freak, Part 1
As an adult I realized that I had a pretty well developed and sexually kinky imagination as a kid. I was having sexual fantasies at a very young age without realizing they were of a sexual nature. I had no idea what sex was or what it meant for something to be sexual. But remembering those things I used to picture in my head while drifting off to sleep at night…wow, it’s pretty naughty.
I’m not going to get graphic. But I will say I was envisioning tentacle porn scenes in my head before I even knew how sex worked. I have no idea from where these fantasies originated. They were weird. Unrealistic. Impossible. They weren’t wank material, either, ‘cause this was well before I started masterbating. They were just weird, prevalent ruminations of an overactive imagination.
I didn’t know it was weird at the time. When I got older, though, I came to believe that my adolescent wank-fantasies, which blossomed from these earlier fantasies, were quite weird. I felt freakish and abnormal for these fantasies. And I equated that to me being bad, perverse, and dirty.
Shane’s a Freak, Part 2
As I got older, by that I mean to the 8- to 10-years-old range, I developed an interest in horror movies…kind of. I never actually saw any because my parents never let us rent horror movies. But every time we went to the video store, I would browse the horror movie section as the rest of the family checked the new releases. Why? Horror movie boxes were plastered with scantily clad girls! Bikinis, lingerie, or just revealing cheerleader or camp counselor outfits.
It’s called Breeders! It has a scene with a bunch of naked ladies bathing in thick, milky liquid! What does that do to one’s sexual development?
When I was old enough to rent and watch movies on my own, I tore through the horror section. Nudity and sex runs rampant in that genre. It was the closest thing I got to porn.
Except for actual porn. To be fair, I saw porn well before I could legally buy or rent it. But horror movies, I had full legal access and could rent those using the family account.
Given how influenced I was by these early experiences, I’m glad internet porn wasn’t a thing in my youth. I would have very unhealthy expectations around sex otherwise. I wonder how much of my enjoyment of BDSM came from my horror movie watching.
Again, I believed all these weird fantasies as being perverse. My understanding of sex was limited. My knowledge of kinks and fetishes was nonexistent. I knew what turned me on wasn’t “normal” sex. I had no idea I wasn’t the only person who was turned on by things beyond normal sex.
Being a kinky teenager was very isolating.
Erin’s a Good Girl
It’s always the quiet ones, isn’t it? Erin is the eldest child in a large family. Much of her childhood involved raising younger siblings. She was the good one. The responsible one. Even in our group of friends, she’s the dark horse that surprises people. I know I present as a bit of a kinky freak, but I think most of our friends assume it’s mostly bluster and that she keeps me in check. Little do they know….
Now, Erin’s own sexuality developed under the tutelage of romance books, which if memory serves, she was reading from an earlier age than might be appropriate. Not the kinky, freaky romance novels that are out there now. All those crazy paranormal books with vampires and werewolves and other strange creatures. No, she learned from the Outlander series (which is now an entertaining TV show).
I’ll let her jump in here with her history if she likes….
Erin’s Early Reading
Yeah, I was a voracious reader as a kid. Judy Blume and some other teen novels had given me a hint of what I would eventually discover from actual romance novels. Because I was reading well above my grade level, I was always getting into my mom’s books. She eventually got to the point where she would let me read some of her books after she had read them first. I was probably around 11 or so? These weren’t bodice-ripper romance novels, just adult fiction books that might be described as “chick-lit”, and they would have some short sex scenes. They weren’t very detailed, but definitely gave hints that I was very curious to explore more of!
Looking back, I realize now that my mom was using these books as a sort of sex education. She was making sure that what I was reading matched her values around sex; mainly that the characters be in love and if not actually married, on the road to marriage.
Erin’s Later Reader
When I was in high school, I had a friend who had a huge collection of actual romance novels. Like, the kind with a shirtless Fabio on the cover. Those were quite the revelation. Detailed, steamy sex scenes. But the same theme ran through these books as well…the characters were in love. The men in these novels worshiped the women they were with.
You would think this would have set me up for a lifetime of disappointment, but despite how Shane describes himself as a kinky freak, he is also very romantic. [Shane: I never said they were mutually exclusive.] Teenage Shane used to kiss my hand (something that continues to this day!) and write me love letters and poetry. So he is a multi-dimensional freak. [Shane: Thanks…?]
High school is also when I discovered the Outlander series, thanks to Mom. These had more substance to them than the bodice-rippers, and the characters had a complex and intense love story. I would say that my sexuality and what I looked for in a romantic relationship was heavily influenced by this series. My early relationship with Shane actually reinforced those desires for intense, all-consuming love prior to sex.
I didn’t see actual porn until college. I never watched horror movies…still can’t! So our early exposure to sex was worlds apart, even though I didn’t know that at the time. My sexuality continued to develop through reading, as I was exposed to more erotic material when I worked at a bookstore in college. One particular series of short stories sparked one of my biggest fantasies: MFM threesomes.
And Shane’s Back!
What better way for two people to develop mismatched, unrealistic expectations of sex and relationships than me coming from a horror movie/porn background and her reading romance novels?
We Went to Catholic School
We met in high school. We’d both gone to different Catholic primary schools. My family was more into the whole religious element than hers; we had much stronger and more rigid traditions around Catholicism than her family.
I’m not going to go into our current religious beliefs or really dive into our Catholic past. Not yet. We weren’t “wait until marriage” people, but we waited longer than most of our friends before we had sex. We were each other’s first times. Not that we regret our decision to wait, but we acknowledge now we both had placed too much importance on it. It was great. It was fun. We’re glad our first times were together.
Buy it wasn’t some magical, mystical experience. We didn’t come away from it feeling different. We weren’t suddenly adults in some way. I think I expected more from it than she did, to be fair. I’m not sure what I expected…. But I did feel a bit let down.
How awful is that? My religious upbringing placed so much importance and power on my virginity and purity, and how I went about “losing it” that I felt let down by the experience?
Erin: I agree that it is sad that so much importance was placed on losing virginity that it was doomed to be a bit of a let-down. However, the flip side of that is how surprised we have been that sex just continues to get better!
Fair point, well made!
Anyway, enough said.
Guilt and Shame
No, wait, I definitely need to say a little more: Guilt. As a teenager, I had a highly developed sense of guilt about the things that turned me on. I had come to believe that my fantasies and desires were perverse. I was kinky. My upbringing made me believe that I was sick. Wicked. Unclean. I felt guilty about the things I fantasized about. I spent most of high school feeling like I shouldn’t have a girlfriend because it wouldn’t be fair to her for her to be with a sick fuck like me.
And of course I felt guilty about how much I masturbated. Which was often, though I don’t think an abnormal amount for a teenage boy. I would feel ashamed after I came. I’d swear I would never do it again. And then a few hours later….
My parents weren’t the source of my guilt, mind you. We didn’t have strict rules about jerking off or anything. In fact, my parents barely ever talked about sex in any way, shape, or form—though, I do think having a more comprehensive sex education would have been helpful to me. They left all that to my school, which had family life class or some such in fifth grade. Yeah, I got sex ed from nuns. Awesome.
I’m still working though this to some extent. I’ve accepted that who I am and what I desire is fine. Fantasies don’t make me a bad person. And really, it’s not like my fantasies are that bad! It’s normal stuff! Well, maybe not “normal.” But one thing I’ve learned from the internet, I’m not as alone as I thought I was.
We Got Together So Young
This is a theory we’ve been banging about—and I’d be curious to hear if this rings true for others in the same predicament—we’ve had a harder time opening up because we met and became friends freshman year of high school and started dating as seniors. All of those early factors, on top of general teenager self consciousness, were in full force. If we had met in college, perhaps I would have come to terms with my own issues already and been able to be more open.
Basically, Erin “knew” me a particular way. But there had been things I had been scared, embarrassed, or ashamed to tell her during the first few years of us dating. A significant part of me pushed those things down anyway. Can’t do that. Can’t want that! Need to get over those things, buddy, and be “normal”!
After having not brought those up for a few years, it was hard to try to bring them up. “Oh, by the way, I know we’re married now, but I neglected to inform you: I’ve got some rather weird sexual proclivities. Hope you don’t mind….”
As teenagers, we didn’t understand how important sex was to a relationship. After all, we’d been in a relationship for years without having sex. We were taught that people shouldn’t have sex before marriage, a practice that implies sexual incompatibility is not a thing. Or at least not something that can cause issues within a marriage. After all, if sex was important, if sexual compatibility mattered, we’d be teaching kids how to figure that out in their relationships rather than preaching abstinence.
Sooner or later, the kinks were coming out into the light of day.
But We Made It
Erin and I have come to realize that we got pretty lucky. Neither of us are the same person we were when we met. But we got through it, developed together, and are still completely in love with the people we’ve each become.
At one point I said something about how I think part of our relationship would have gone better had we not started dating in high school but rather reconnected after college, after having had some time to develop and mature before finding each other again. It’s a theory Erin agreed with. We’re kind of, sort of working on a romance novel based on that idea.
That First Awkward Talk
The first round of “Hey, I’m kinkier than I ever told you…sorry” conversation was a year or so after our marriage. It was deeply cathartic for me. I had been feeling guilty about hiding that from Erin, more so now that we were married.
But we didn’t do anything with it after it was out. She was very accepting, and made me feel safe and loved. She helped me realize that being turned on by certain fantasies didn’t make me a bad person. Some of my kinks were cool with her, maybe something we’d explore.
Others, she had no interest in exploring, but if I wanted to read/write erotica or watch porn about it, she didn’t care.
And after all that…we continued with sex as normal. I hadn’t told her about those things because I felt a need to do any of them. I just felt bad hiding that I liked them. There was no urgency to act on this information. It was just there. And ignored.
We didn’t continue to talk about kinks and fantasies even after we’d broken the ice and had that super awkward talk. We’d both shared some stuff about what turned us on, but we left it as our own personal things. We were still too ashamed and embarrassed to bring up the conversation again. No “Remember how we both said we’d like to try XXX? Want to actually try it?”
Not for several more years.
Now We’re Talking!
So what was the catalyst that got us opening up about fantasies and desires and sharing all of our dirty little secrets with each other?
I am of course going to say MDMA. In the throes of a solid roll, I feel only love and warmth and acceptance from and toward Erin. I can tell her everything and anything without my shame or guilt holding me back.
Suddenly it was a lot easier to say that most of the time we have sex, I want to smack your ass and tits more and harder. And for her to admit she wanted that, too. Or for Erin to share than just about every time she ever has an orgasm, she’s does so while fantasizing about a girl being fucked by two or more guys. That was going on in her head since before we were married, and I never knew until we were rolling.
Early on in our MDMA experiences, I would have ideas about things I’d want to tell her during our next roll. Some experience I had thought about and wanted to share. Or something I saw in porn. I still wasn’t able to talk openly about these things sober, but now I had an outlet. A time when I knew we’d be in a totally safe space and I could say anything without being judged.
Eventually, our marriage just became that safe space. Rolling still brings things up—we’ve even discovered new kinks and fantasies while on MDMA!—but if there is something either of us wants to say, we have the confidence to say it. We don’t recoil from opening up about our desires and fantasies.
…And Not Just to Each Other!
We’ve both gotten better at opening up to others as well. That’s the swinger lifestyle for you. Remember way back at the beginning when I mentioned Erin and I were the kinky ones in our group of friends? We still are…as far as we know. Though, I’m willing to bet I’m still pretty far out there even in a room full of lifestyle people. Very few of our vanilla circle know about our shenanigans. We’re not comfortable bringing it up and scandalizing them.
We’re much more open with our lifestyle friends. There’s an openness and receptiveness to these conversations. We feel more comfortable and relaxed casually talking about sex.
We currently have a KiK thread going with one couple about some of the things we want to do during our next get together, how the ladies are each going to get some MFM time. There’s no way we would ever mention that we’ve ever had a MFM to our vanilla friends, who we’ve been close to for over 20 years. That whole keeping-up-appearances thing that stifled our own communication for so long.
Find a Way to Open Up About Your Fantasies and Desires
We fell into our catalyst through MDMA (though I believe our relationship would have gotten there eventually). The Joneses were on a cruise and the moment clicked. The Cajuns’ catalyst was an affair. We’re all in better places in our relationships and sex lives because something kicked off the conversation and got us talking.
If you haven’t found your catalyst yet…make one! If you have fantasies and desires left unmentioned and unexplored, find a way to create the safe space in your relationship to open up about them. It might feel risky to put yourself out there, but if you are in a loving relationship with someone who truly cares about you, then it’s worth being open.
How to Take the Plunge
Far be it for me to actually recommend MDMA, but if that’s something you have access to, it can do the trick. Some people might need to be a bit drunk or high to be open, and there is nothing wrong with that. Feeling vulnerable isn’t easy. But here are some other ideas that might work for you to get the conversation started.
Upfront and Direct
If you are comfortable doing so, then setting up a date night with the explicit expectation of discussing fantasies might work: “Hey, I want to tell you about some fantasies I’ve been thinking about lately, but I’m a little nervous, so we might have to get drunk!” This sets the tone of the evening (revealing fantasies), lets your partner know you are nervous (hopefully they will understand the significance and tread lightly), and lets them know you are planning on drinking.
Podcasts, Blogs, and Erotica
If you’ve found some podcasts that cover your kinks, you can try sharing one or two with your partner. Same holds true for blogs or erotica. You can listen/read together and discuss in the moment, or share an episode and talk later. Over drinks.
This can continue to be an avenue for sharing and exploring kinks after that initial talk. Erin and I listen to several different podcasts, and we’ll talk about what the hosts mention and what we think of it. Or one of us might read a story or blog post and share it. Erin’s sent me a few Girl on the Net posts over the years, which have led to us trying things. She recently read a short story called The Engagement Gift, which Amazon recommended as a free download on her Kindle. When she was done, she told me I would like it. MFM/hotwifing threesome, nothing new for us to discuss, but it was a good read and keeps us talking about fantasies and desires.
Sexting
We don’t sext often—usually just when I’m traveling without her and have been away for a few days—but we have found that distance helps us express ideas and fantasies. After all, sexting is purely fantasy already, so it’s a natural progression to add certain kinky elements into the dirty talk.
Texting also gives you more time to think through ideas before you say them and to really consider your words. Short silences don’t feel like awkward pauses.
Though without tone of voice and facial expressions, some context is lost in this medium. I wouldn’t suggest this for those who find they often miscommunicate in text form.
Workshops and Coaching
There are professionals out there who can help create a safe space to explore and express your desires with a partner. Some adult stores/sex toy shops have seminars and classes. Some sex clubs have BDSM and kink nights (I tend to think those couples attending sex clubs are already pretty open, but hey, no stone unturned!).
And you can work one-on-one (well, more like two-on-one or two-on-two, I suppose) with coaches and counselors. Sex Uninterrupted has a coaching program and a Spiritual Slut online course, which sounds like exactly what I needed back in the day to come to terms with my sexual desires. There’s also Catherine, a non-monogamy counselor and coach who has been featured on a few of our favorite podcasts. She did a coaching session with Swinging Downunder, which was not only pretty ballsy for Cate and Darrell to live on their podcast that but also very informative to hear how such coaching worked. Kudos to all involved! And Catherine wrote a blog post for We Gotta Thing about her new program Beyond Bros, which is a program to help men support each other in the lifestyle. Lord knows we need it!
Disclaimer: We haven’t used these, or any other, professional services, so we can’t vouch for how well they work. We’re self-medicated, after all. I’m just providing potentially helpful information.
It’s Worth It!
Opening up to Erin has made a world of difference in my life, my self confidence, and my overall opinion of myself. She’s helped me come around to understanding that these desires aren’t perverse, and they certainly aren’t evil. They don’t make me a bad person.
And now that we are able to be open with each other, and with others, our sex life is way better. We still have many more fantasies to explore, and I’m sure more desires and ideas will bloom up over the years. And now we are equipped to talk about these desires and decide in which we wish to indulge.
So get out there! Get talking! And get freaky!