I tend to do these blog posts in topical chunks. Apparently I’m on a hotwife kick. I might as well continue with it. So in this post, I’m going to delve into how we stag and vixen. Which sounds like it could be a dance. Surely such a dance would involve me pushing Erin at guys I think she might find hot.
What Erin’s Looking For in a Bull
I’ll take a stab at writing about what Erin wants from a bull, but I’ll let Erin correct me, add her own thoughts, or even just completely rewrite this if she wishes.
A Genuine Connection
Erin’s fairly shy. She wants a guy to respect that but who can also engage with her and bring her out of her shell a little bit. She’s a great listener and a good conversationalist. Well read, interesting, and thoughtful. She’s just not usually one to jump-start a conversation. She likes humor (thank goodness) and laughs readily (thank goodness).
Erin wants to have at least some kind of connection to a bull. It’s more than just physical attraction for her. She has to be comfortable. She has to trust in order to relax and open up. None of this is too surprising. We never dated other people before we were married. Neither of us have had a one-night stand. It’s way outside her comfort zone.
Desired…but Not Obsessed About
She wants to feel sexy and desired, but she doesn’t expect, need, or even want constant flirty texting. It’s a fine line for her; I’m sure she’d agree that in this regard she’s probably difficult. Too much and she feels pressured to engage. Not enough and it feels like no interest.
Erin: It’s true. I am not easy to please in this aspect of things. I have definitely been turned off by guys who send a barrage of texts and want to chat constantly. As I said to Shane after being bombarded by one guy, I don’t chat over text with anyone that much! I might exchange texts with my sisters on a daily basis, but not all day every day. With friends, maybe a few times a week. So it feels like way too much to be expected to chat/sext with a guy multiple times a day. I guess I am introverted even over text!
But on the flip side, Shane is right that I want to feel some enthusiasm/desire from the guy. Things are currently feeling stagnant and maybe fizzled out with our regular bull because I just don’t hear from him. It’s a shame because we both genuinely like him and enjoy his company, and I think the feeling is mutual. But I am finding that I can’t get motivated to contact him to arrange a date because I don’t feel the desire coming from his side.
She’s not looking for someone to booty call. She doesn’t want to feel like the object of someone’s total desire.
Erin: Oh yeah, remember that one guy who seemed to hold me responsible for the rate at which he got laid? He actually made a snarky comment about how we got to have sex more frequently than he did as a defense for why he was too rough during play (there is more about him below). That was the last time he was invited. Huge turn-off!
I had forgotten about that! That was weird.
What I’m Looking for in Erin’s Bulls
I want to be able to trust the guy. I want to believe that if she says stop, he will. That if he agrees to use a condom then he’s going to do so. Basically I go into each meeting looking to see whether I can trust this guy to be alone with her at some point. It might never happen, but that’s how I evaluate it.
“He’s fine if I’m there to monitor him, but I wouldn’t want her to meet him alone” is not acceptable for me.
Ideally, I’d love to befriend a bull to the point of being friends with him outside any interaction with Erin. Like, if we could find someone who I could go running with or hang out with when Erin is out with her friends, that would be awesome.
“Hey, Shane, I’m going out with the girls on Thursday night. I shouldn’t be too late.”
“Cool! I’ll call Liam and see if he wants to grab some wings and beers. Text me when you are on your way home and let me know if I should invite him back to the house.”
Yup, that’s how my imagination works.
I also love the idea of bringing a bull into my vanilla social circle, like inviting him to summer BBQ or to our birthday party, something like that. Where this guy is part of our secret swinger life, and he’s staying for an after-party that all the vanilla peeps don’t even know about.
Though to be fair, that’s not just for bulls. I think the same thing about inviting our couples friends to vanilla things.
Stag and Vixen and Bull Threesomes
So far all of our stag and vixen play has been MFM threesomes. Erin has yet to play with any bulls without me being involved at least in some part. My level of engagement has shifted during play. During our first threesome experiences, I was always in the mix, touching her or fucking her or her going down on me.
Barring the occasional picture taking. I used to have a folder photos of her with other guys simply labeled “That’s Not Me!” (cause I thought it was funny), but that harddrive died years ago.
Cloud storage was not a thing back when those were taken. Camera phones weren’t even a thing!
Erin has a particular kink for watching me jerk off. I won’t go into too much detail now cause that deserves its own post. Probably from her. It’s worth mentioning now because Erin likes to watch me jerk off while watching her getting fucked by another guy.
Erin: Yes, I find this soooo sexy. I love to be able to make eye contact with Shane while he watches. And to see how turned on he is watching me. To be clear, I also love when he is directly involved, so it is great when we can mix in a little of both.
I’m all for it! Watching sex live is better than porn. Seeing people getting their kink on is super sexy to me. I like sluts. So watching my wife getting fucked hits all my buttons. Knowing she wants me to watch makes it even hotter.
Finding Bull-Hopefuls
Our SLS account (which is completely separate from our blogger selves; we have a Kasidie account for connecting with our Fringe personas) says we’re open to meeting single guys. That usually means we have a fair number of requests from bull-hopefuls coming in. If we’re hunting for a bull, it doesn’t take much to get our attention. If a guy is respectful, articulate, meets Erin’s minimum physical requirements (which isn’t difficult given she’s who she’s married to), and has a decent profile, we’ll engage.
Erin: Minimal physical requirements based on who I am married to? Now that’s funny. I feel like we should post a picture of Shane here to illustrate how hilarious that statement is! (Shane: We did post a picture of me at the top of the one blog post about my body issues.) Shane has this incredible muscular physique. Broad, defined shoulders, chest, and arms. Just the way I like it! Not to mention the fact that he is super handsome with great eyes and smile. (Shane: OK, those aren’t in the picture, but most of my smiles are pretty goofy. Friendly, sure, but goofy. As for the eyes, I guess that depends on what color they decided to be that day.) So in reality, it is difficult for me to find a guy that measures up to him at all.
Personality is a really important part of attraction for me, and it can be difficult to get a sense of that through an online profile. I have met guys who I thought I would be attracted to based on pictures, only to feel no chemistry in person. And I have been surprised by being physically attracted to guys who I would not have expected to, based on the pictures alone. All that is to say, a lot of things have to click into place before I will play with someone.
Vetting Bull-Hopefuls
We craft a reply. The conversation moves to Kik, often to my Kik so I can vet. Once I’ve had enough interaction to see that he can text well enough that Erin won’t immediately hate him and that he has enough respect, I’ll pass him her Kik info. Then it’s up to him to impress her. I don’t monitor her conversations with bulls or bull-hopefuls.
At that point, it’s her call whether we meet him. I don’t think there is anything a guy could say to her that would trip my warning bells and not hers.
Meeting Bull-Hopefuls
As you could infer, we meet bulls together. We have done so over full dinners, but we changed that strategy after one particularly bad meet up. The first negative was the restaurant was oddly crowded, and we had to wait for 45 minutes to an hour for a table. There was no room to sit at the bar. We just kind of stood around in the bar area, barely able to hear each other.
But the real deal breaker was when he admitted he was married, and his wife didn’t know he was cheating on her. Which he told us after we’d ordered. We probably should have canceled our meals and walked out…but after waiting an hour, we were really hungry!
Erin: Yeah, this situation was a big disappointment for a couple of reasons. For one, I didn’t think I was feeling an attraction to this guy, but it was hard to tell since we could barely talk standing in the crowded bar. So we were investing all this time even though I was feeling pretty lukewarm about the possibility of playing. And then he drops the married bomb and that was that. In hindsight we should have left or asked him to leave…that would have been ideal since we were starving and could have enjoyed the dinner out just the two of us! Instead we suffered through more awkward conversation. Lesson learned though…now we know to explicitly ask about marital status.
He was really into Erin, though; he asked a few times if we were sure him being married was a problem. For a few months after that meeting, every so often I’d get a Kik from him “Have you guys changed your mind about the married thing?”
Nope!
No Married Guys?
To be clear, we have no issue with a bull being married. Our most regular one is married, but his wife knows. They play together and separately. And we know she knows because we’ve met her.
Erin: This was like a breath of fresh air after the previous married guy dinner disaster. The first time we chatted, he told me he was married and talked about how they play together and separately, and directed me to their joint profile on SLS as well. She liked for him to go out and have threesomes and then come home and tell her all about it while he fucked her. I loved knowing that our playtime was fueling their sex life as well! And then when we did end up meeting her, everything that he had told us was confirmed.
I Just Realized….
This vetting process isn’t so different from our normal couple-vetting. I don’t screen them first without Erin, but sometimes one of us might have more engagement with the potential couple before we bring it over to a group Kik.
When we meet couples, we typically don’t play on first dates. We did so more in our earlier years, during those first few swing experiences over a decade ago. But we learned that didn’t work well for us. We didn’t have enough time to process and check-in with each other.
Not to say it can’t happen these days. Only that it would not be our norm.
Unless we’re meeting single guys. I don’t know that we’ve made any of those guys need to come back for a second date.
Erin: Nope, with single guys I haven’t felt the need for a second date. If I am not into it on the first date, there is no point in investing more time. It feels different with couples, but with couples we are happy to get together and hang out even if it doesn’t lead to play. So if we like a couple and have a good time hanging out, whether or not we want to play with them, won’t necessarily impact our desire to get together with them again.
Of course it’s easier for three people to connect than four. And it’s more like two and a half, really. My opinion counts—if I say no, it’s a no—but I just need to feel like the guy’s cool. If Erin’s into him, we’re 80% of the way to a threesome.
I just thought it was a funny realization that it’s easier for a bull-hopeful to get into our bed than a couple.
Playing With Bulls
Usually as the scheduled time approaches for Erin’s bull to arrive for a play session, we sit in the living room with drinks, listen to music or a podcast, and discuss if there is anything in particular either of us want to try during the up-coming threesome. Erin’s usually waiting around in lingerie.
When the bull arrives, we all sit awhile and hang out. After all, bulls are chosen based upon genuine connection. That is necessary for Erin to get comfortable. We have a large L-sofa. Erin’s usually in the corner spot of the L with us on either side. She’s usually closer to and interacting more with him. I play the host and serve drinks so that they can just relax together. She needs to build up that comfort with him, and it’s fun for me to watch them flirting. Very little tends to happen on the sofa. It’s all just chatting and laughing and what not.
Until I go upstairs to the bathroom.
Apparently me leaving the room completely (versus just getting another bottle of wine) flips the switch, cause when I come back, they are making out.
Like, every time!
This is not a complaint. I thoroughly enjoy walking back into the room to find her going at it. In fact, if they were doing more than making out, that would be fine. Neigh, awesome!
Let’s Get This Show Started!
This isn’t just with one bull, either, and not just something that Erin does. I seem to recall hearing or reading about some other guys having the same experience, that wife and bull are all chatting and flirty when he’s in the room, but his leaving is what gets things started. (If I can find what I was talking about at some point, I’ll link to it.)
That makes perfect sense: All three of us are interacting. For two people to break off and start playing is awkward. It would work better in a cuckold dynamic. “Oh, you were talking? Whatever, I’m kissing your wife now.”
Noting this pattern of behavior is important. It means I have control over when things kick off based on my actions. It also means if I don’t act, we might hang out for hours and waste all the play time on drinks.
So I’ve become strategic as to when I leave the room. I wait until I think Erin has had her warm-up time, and then go upstairs. I also take a moment to prepare the room (light candles and such), just to give them a little more alone time.
Taking The Party to the Bedroom
When I return, I let them have some foreplay time, and then I slowly move into it. I know Erin wants two guys, not just for me to watch the whole time. As much fun as this is for me—and it is!—it’s all about her. That’s what I like about it: How much Erin enjoys it!
Usually making out and groping and even some oral tends to happen on the sofa before someone suggestions taking it upstairs. I think that usually Erin who at that point wants to be in a better, more comfortable position to feel and touch us both.
As Erin takes her bull upstairs, I clean up the wine glasses, gather the iPod and speaker, fill a couple glasses of water—you know, typical delaying tactics—then head up after them. I like to give them a little time to settle and get comfortable again.
And then I join them.
From Yes Please to No Thank You
Now reading all this, you might think that our screening process is down to a refined science. That we’ve had a bevy of bulls stampede through our bedroom. You would be wrong.
Erin, check my math. (That might be the first time I’ve asked that of her. She’s really bad at math.) There have been five bulls so far, right? I can only remember four, but I’m willing to bet I’m missing one.
Erin: Hmmm, I can only think of four.
(Wow, my memory was right? Weird. Also, we should try to make that an even 10.)
We met other bull-hopefuls, but they never made the cut.
Currently, she’s only got one in the stable. So what happened to the others?
…And You’re Out!
One drank too much and couldn’t perform. Dude, you had one job!
One didn’t follow instructions. She told him he was being too rough, going too hard, and he couldn’t course correct. He might change it up a little for a while, but he’d fall back into his rhythm. And that happened across a couple different play sessions. Sorry, but if you aren’t actually pleasuring her, there’s no reason to have you back.
Erin: Yeah, this guy crossed the line between enthusiasm and pushiness. He was making it more about him than about me. Which, sorry if this sounds selfish, but I expect the opposite. Don’t get me wrong, I will make it about him too. But the guy needs to care about what I want and what turns me on, or it isn’t going to go anywhere. And if you don’t listen to what I want (or don’t want) even after I explicitly tell you? Sorry, buddy, you are out.
I would note this has happened with some men in the couples we’ve played with, too. It seems weird to have men in the lifestyle, single or married, who don’t follow instructions.
The last guy…we just misplaced. We fell out of the lifestyle for a bit, and maybe he did too, and we lost contact with him. This was back when we were on Adult Friend Finder. Alas for that loss.
Erin: Yeah, it is a shame. I don’t think I realized back then how challenging it would be to find quality single guys who meet all of the criteria. Interestingly, this guy was also married and allowed to play separately. So out of the two bulls, the two married guys who weren’t cheating were the ones that were invited back.
There’s No One Right Way to Play
Whatever your style, and whatever you want to call it, be it cuckolding, hotwifing, or stag and vixen play, there is really only one requirement: Open and honest communication with everyone involved.
If you are the hotwife couple, be upfront and clear about your rules, restrictions, and what you want to get from the bull. If you are a bull, be honest about what you are comfortable with and what you hope to get from the experience, only agree to the rules if you will play by them, and don’t try to pressure the couple to change.
Oh, and don’t be cheating on your wife! That’s awful.