This post about forced flirting has been well over a week in the writing. It was one of my shorter pieces. But then Erin added her thoughts. And then I had to reply to her. And now it’s a Typical Shane Essay.
I ended up with a different conclusion than I was originally intending. See? I do use this blog to help me analyze my own thinking!
And now context: In our last post I mentioned how we learned about Monogamish Marriage’s infamous icebreaker lock-and-key game during virtual Podcast-A-Palooza.
When we discussed it at the time, Erin said she thought this kind of icebreaker game would be helpful for her. Being both shy and introverted, Erin has difficulty talking to people. But within the bounds of a structured game, she thinks she would be more comfortable.
I’m not so great at “cold” introducing myself to people (I worry that I’m interrupting or annoying people), but there was something about the game as they described it that bothered me: an element of forced flirting that goes along with it which stands out as problematic.
Erin Weighs in Throughout
Yeah, I can see how this sort of game would be helpful for me. It would get people laughing and interacting, and having the structure of the game would keep you moving around to different people. I think the list of questions is a great idea to get conversations going.
I think it’s interesting that Shane feels put off by what he sees as “forced” flirting since he often talks about how he needs help in that department! It doesn’t feel forced to me. It feels more like…facilitated?
I think it is the sort of thing that would help people like Shane and I, who struggle not only with flirting but just with talking to new people.
And Then I Reply
Don’t get me wrong. I see the value in icebreakers. And I’m terrible at flirting. My problem is that lifestyle games and icebreakers that have flirting as an active game element are forcing the flirtation on the players.
Anytime you play a game, there is implied consent. But implied consent and even earnest consent doesn’t mean there is any enthusiasm. Which means if a game states I need to kiss another player, I can assume I have the other player’s earnest consent to do so because we are both playing the game.
But just because I have their consent, that doesn’t mean they want a kiss. They are just going along with it because the game dictates the action. To stop me from kissing them, they can revoke consent or never have played the game to begin with.
But given situations like small house parties or sessions at a lifestyle event, how realistic is it to revoke consent or not play the game?
It’s All About the Game, and How You Play It
The gist of the lock-n-key game is simple: Men get a key. Ladies get a lock and a list of questions. Everyone goes around the room trying key and lock combinations until the sets are matched, and then the pair answer the icebreaker questions. The keys and questions are redistributed, and then everyone plays again. And again, perhaps.
So what’s my problem?
If the keys and locks are worn at the wrist or just held in the hand, nothing.
However, Monogamish plays with the locks and keys on ribbons. They have the players tie the ribbons around their necks. They recommend getting up close and personal when trying to unlock the lock.
It’s that forced closeness that doesn’t sit with me. I don’t want the rules of the game requiring someone to get close to me if they don’t want to. And I can never know if they want to if that’s how the game is played.
In fact, if I’m the one tying the ribbon around my neck, I have the option of giving myself very little slack, and thus requiring I have to get in super close to everyone to test my key in a lock.
Not that I would do that; I would do the opposite and give myself as much slack as possible.
I’m a fairly large guy. Not abnormally tall or broad or anything but big enough I’ve always been aware that I’m big. I hunch uncomfortably in airplane seats to not spill over into other passengers’ spaces. In crowds, I dodge and weave and slip sideways, always worried that I’m in the way.
I would spend every moment of trying to get my key in someone’s lock as far away from them as possible, unwilling to enter their personal space. It would get real weird real quick.
And Now Erin…
Okay, so this is an interesting distinction.
Shane doesn’t like imposing his physical form on others, especially women. I can understand why guys would feel this way. Shane and some of our guy friends in the lifestyle have talked about being super careful about touching or getting close to women for fear of being seen as aggressive or creepy. They never want a woman to feel intimidated or creeped out by them. I can appreciate how difficult a line this is to walk, trying to show interest but not being too aggressive.
In the context of the game, it would be possible to let the woman make the first move. I am not sure how short the ribbons are that are tied around the neck, so I don’t know how close it would be necessary to get. But the guy could let the woman decide how she wanted to move her body in relation to his.
My guess is that most women would get into the spirit of the game and get pretty close! I don’t think it would be that different from hugging someone, which both Shane and I do readily even with people we just met.
Yes, I Am a Hugger
But I don’t usually initiate hugs with people I have not hugged before. I’ve extended a hand only to be told, “No, I hug.” And I’m like, “Yeah me too!”
In this case, it is on the other person to decide if they want to hug me.
In lifestyle scenarios, I do the send-Erin-first-and-see-how-the-other-guy-greets-her thing. And then I make sure not to go further than that.
If we went to a house party and the host and hostess greeted us with a hug and then said, “Rules of the house: Greet everyone with a hug!” that would bother me.
I Can Clearly not Choose the Wine in Front of Me
Had Podcast-A-Palooza gone off in Miami in October as was originally intended, we would have learned about the lock-and-key game upon attending Monogamish’s session. And we would have played it with the other session attendees.
Which means if I didn’t want to play, I would either have needed to not go to their session (which required I know what the game entailed beforehand—which I didn’t) or opt out in the moment. Which in turn opts Erin out of playing as well (unless some other lady jumped on my bandwagon and decided to step out). That would also call a fair bit of attention on me (and Erin) when I stand up and say, “Yeah, I don’t want to play that game. I’ll just come back in ten minutes when you get to the info about throwing a party.”
If this game is played at a lifestyle club or other large, less organized venue (Sapphic Swingers mentioned they’ve played it a few times at Trapeze I believe), then it’s a little easier to not participate without making a scene. At a Podcast-A-Palooza session or a house party, I’m kind of stuck. Everyone’s going to see me not play the game. Even if Monogamish said that if people weren’t comfortable with the game, they could sit out, it would be tough to be the first (only?) person to step out.
And hey, I get it. If I’m not willing to play what is inherently an innocent game, then maybe I shouldn’t be attending such events. I don’t disagree.
And Now Erin…. Part 2: Electric Boogaloo
This is the sort of thing we constantly struggle with. A lot of the elements of the lifestyle do not come naturally to us.
So do we want to dive in and try to participate in things like this that are meant to alleviate our struggles? Or is it all way too far out of our comfort zone, and we need to just opt out?
We have been having varieties of this same discussion for years. Podcast-A-Palooza was going to be our attempt to see if we could hack it. Looks like we will be in limbo for a while longer.
Fake Boobs: Fine! Fake Flirting: No Thanks!
In discussing this issue with Erin, I likened the game to eating at Hooters restaurant.
Hooters’s buffalo wings are decent. But they are a little more expensive than other local wing places. They also charge extra for blue cheese and celery. Therefore, the only reason to go to Hooters is the waitresses.
I absolutely hate the experience of dealing with Hooters waitresses.
They act flirty and friendly when they engage with you. They’ll even sit down and chat. I can’t tell you how shocked and appalled I was the first time that happened. I wanted to say, “I’m sorry, but your only responsibility here is to refill my beer when I need it and bring more wings when I order them. Your tip is directly proportional to the speed and diligence with which you handle both of those things. And you cannot do either while sitting here talking to us.”
Unfortunately the guys I was with seemed really interested in talking to this waitress and tipped her quite well for sitting at our table, faking interest, hindering our conversation with each other, and not refilling my beer.
And that has been my experience every time I’ve been to a Hooters.
And strip clubs. (Funny, I just realized I’ve probably been to slightly more strip clubs than Hooters, but it’s close). I like to tip strippers based on athletic ability, music selection, and enthusiasm (which can be faked, yes). I’d prefer good dancing to nudity. Which is why I prefer burlesques.
“Fun” Shane Fact: I have never had a lap dance because I refuse to pay for someone to act like they want to grind on me.
And Now Erin: Three Is Airtight
On the subject of waitresses and strippers, I absolutely agree with Shane. I am not interested in talking to someone who is only talking to me in the hopes of getting a better tip. Don’t get me wrong, I am more than happy to tip waitresses and strippers, and we tip them well! I just don’t need them to pretend to be interested in me personally. That’s awkward.
I feel the same way about lap dances. I would much prefer to watch and appreciate a good performer rather than pay her to grind on me.
Shane Goes Downunder
It amused me that Erin and I were on a live Swinging Downunder podcast “last night” (at the time of the writing of this section, it was last night, and after I wrote my first draft but before Erin did her edits).
Cate and Darrell were playing the Game of Lifestyle Icebreaker deck and asking questions of their listeners. Some of these same topics came up. One question was something like, “What is something that someone can do to turn you off?”
For me, be fake.
And I relayed this story on the podcast: Erin and I were at one of our local lifestyle clubs that hosts a MILF contest, a multi-event summerlong contest to pick the TPA MILF to send to Hedo in January for the MILF Week Contest. Some of these events are scored based on audience votes.
One of the contestants came up to us after the event (bikini show? lap dance? I don’t recall that night’s contest) and was chatting with us. In fact, flirting with us. So much so even I noticed! Not just noticed, either. I thought, “Man, this is over the top!”
I don’t think she’s ever talked to us before or after that. It was pretty clear she was trying to “seduce” us for her vote. So much so, she didn’t even count to make the list of the four times I’ve been hit on. That wasn’t being hit on; it was just being in her line of sight.
Other Incidents of Forced Flirting
This discomfort with forced flirting also makes me leery about going to places like Desire. I’ve heard on various podcasts that guests play games in the hot tub/pool area or there are Playmakers whose job it is to get people involved and mingling. Many stories involve some kind of sexy truth-or-dare games or randomly generated naughty, flirty situations like dirty Jenga or an action-based card game.
I don’t think I want to be caught in the crosshairs of any of that.
For example, let’s say a girl at a lifestyle club was dared to come up and kiss me. No thanks, not interested. I don’t want a pity kiss.
Or suppose she came up and said, “We’re playing this game, and the card I drew says I need to kiss a guy in a blue shirt…” and kind of nods to my blue shirt.
My reaction? “Would you like me to give this shirt to someone else so you can kiss him instead?”
I’d be down for stripping off to help her and another guy out.
As long as I get my blue shirt back. I like that shirt.
And Now Erin: This Makes It a Foursome
I see this sort of situation as very different from the waitress/stripper example. The women playing these games are not doing so out of a need or desire for money, they are doing so for their own enjoyment.
I do understand why Shane would feel weird about physical interaction with someone under these circumstances, though.
I have had guys want to get physical with me, but I felt like I was just in the right place at the right time, and I didn’t want things to go further.
What bothered me in these situations was that I could have been any female that they found reasonably attractive. It does put a damper on my interest when I feel that way. Like they weren’t attracted to me but to anyone new.
I think we are socialized to think that guys will take sex or physical interaction with women in any way they can get it, but that is not true for all guys. Shane wants to feel a connection before getting physical, which I understand. But I think he is over-thinking this one a bit. We aren’t talking about intense physical interaction here. It is meant to be light-hearted and would be fairly quick in a game situation.
I Cannot Think a Thing Without Overthinking the Thing
I’d like to expand on Erin’s statement that “Shane wants to feel a connection before getting physical.”
That’s true when it comes to actual play. In the case of these games, my problem is the opposite: I want to feel like the woman is crushing up against me because she actually wants to crush up against me rather than feeling like she’s only crushing up against me because the game says she’s supposed to crush up against me.
This goes back to me wanting to feel sexy and attractive. If a game is the impetus for that behavior, then I don’t feel attractive. I can trust that level of interest as much as I did with the MILF contestant. Which is to say not at all.
Whilst true that women playing lifestyle games are doing so for their own enjoyment, the issue still remains that enthusiasm can wax and wane even during the participation of the game.
Back to the lock-and-key game: One lovely lady is happily flirting as she tries to find the guy who has the key that fits her lock. The choices are getting slim and suddenly she realizes she needs to check my key.
This innuendo went over my head for a really long time.
Because she’s already been crushing up against other guys hoping their keys will properly rock her tumblers, I would imagine it would be difficult for her to say to me, “Eh, I’m good. Maybe we just stay at arms’ reach to try this out.”
The game has pressured her into not being comfortable revoking her consent to physical interaction because she doesn’t want to hurt my feelings being the only guy who’s key she doesn’t want in her lock.
The Only Winning Move Is Not to Play
If it’s just questions and answers like the Game of Lifestyle Icebreaker Deck, that’s fine. I think that’s a great way to get to know people, to be a little flirty, and build rapport.
If it’s the hot and heavy deck played to provoke transition from conversation to sexy time, also fine. Transitions can be awkward. If a pair or trio of couples are hanging out with the hopes that it turns sexual but no one is quite ready to just get naked to move things along, playing a sexy game can move the evening along.
But at the point the game is offered, everyone is agreeing that it’s transition time. If someone in the group isn’t ready to progress, they can say, “I need another drink or two before we kick it up a notch.” Even when the game is going, if a card comes up that’s a little too spicy too soon, it can be skipped or slipped down a little lower for later.
A lock-and-key game played in a session room with 20 couples or a sexy truth-and-dare game played in the pool at Desire, those are different. It’s hard to take stock and make consent decisions based on such a large group. It becomes challenging to revoke consent on a case-by-case basis.
And Now Erin: Five’s a Gangbang
I agree that it would be challenging to back out of a game when doing so would call attention to ourselves. I would find it difficult to interrupt the flow of things to get out of the situation.
But this goes back to our lifestyle struggle—if we are going to do this, we are going to put ourselves in uncomfortable situations where we have to be OK either going with the flow or enforcing our boundaries. I would assume that everyone else in the room had made those same decisions. No one is forced into anything. If they are participating in the game, it is because they want to. People do this sort of icebreaker because they feel like they will get something out of it. I would certainly come out of something like this having interacted with way more people than I would have without it.
So What’s the Root of My Problem Really?
I was hit with a lovely bit of insomnia the other night, so between 1:30 a.m. and 3:30 a.m., I had time to ponder from where my issues arise.
I think I’ve been pretty clear on this point, but let me just drive it home: I don’t have a problem with a woman touching, groping, or kissing me (though a random walk-by crotch-grab from a complete stranger might be weird). My problem is that the rules of a game can put a woman into a situation with which she is not comfortable with how she is meant to interact with me.
My entire concern comes from being overly concerned about what someone else is feeling. I want to make sure I don’t upset, offend, or ruin someone else’s good time. Again, my Seven is showing.
But why do I think this interaction is going to ruin someone else’s good time?
My Inability to Identify Interest
Insomnia’s a bitch. For some reason, being wide awake (and desperate not to be) in the middle of the night makes my mind go negative. After my bout of restlessness, I would have blamed a general lack of confidence on my part.
“Even in a room full of swingers,” I might have written, “the ladies aren’t going to want to interact that way with me. But the rules are forcing them to. And that sucks for them. And me.”
My confidence isn’t usually that bad on a normal day. Though when Erin and I listen to podcasts and hear one of the women say something like “Confidence is sexy!” I very confidently say: “Well, there go my chances!”
Confidence isn’t my problem (I realized after a better night’s sleep).
It’s that even after all these years, I haven’t shifted from vanilla norms.
I recall an episode of We Gotta Thing in which Mr. Jones says that when he’s at vanilla functions, he has to remind himself to kiss women appropriately and keep his hands above the waist. He’s so used to flirty kisses on the lips in a lifestyle context that he’s conscientious about slipping into that norm when it’s not appropriate to do so.
I’m the opposite. Even when it might be appropriate to touch or be flirty, I can’t ditch my rigid, vanilla-life caution. Getting close enough with a stranger to be able to test a key in a lock is unnatural for me. Made all the more so because I worry about my size being intimidating/unsettling/uncomfortable for people.
If I were playing the key-and-lock game, my default assumption is that any woman’s interest in getting close to me or any other guy is neutral at best.
This can’t be the case, of course, because if it were such games wouldn’t even get played.
Just Enjoy the Ride!
I also realized this stems from an irrational and unacceptable lack of trust in the ladies playing this game. I need to trust that if they are playing, it’s because they legitimately want to play.
If a woman comes up to me with a lock, I could make it awkward and uncomfortable for her by being creepy or handsy or inappropriate. Maybe that’s the SOP for some guys.
As Erin pointed out, everyone participating in the game has chosen to do so. I can let women make the first move and decide for themselves how close they want to get. Maybe that will be a turn off to women who want a man to take the lead and get close because that makes her feel sexy. We’ve already established I’m going into this assuming I’ll be a disappointment; now we’re just playing with semantics.
But I need to trust in her autonomy. That the level of interaction we’re having is appropriate and desired. That any woman asking for a kiss based on the color of my shirt is getting enjoyment from the flirty nature of the game.
Jumping Into the Deep End
Of course, all this insanity is coming from Logical Shane. And (probably more important in this hypothetical) Sober Shane. Were I drinking at a lifestyle club and some girl came up and said she was playing a game and wanted to kiss me, would I really turn her down?
Erin thinks no.
I think it’s more likely that I’d stare at her confused and maybe ask “What?” “Really?” and “Are you sure?” so many times that she’d move on.
But I agree that a trip to someplace like Desire or Podcast-A-Palooza is probably the testing ground I need to see if I can develop that lifestyle persona and shed vanilla norms.
The way I see it, this is still the same issue as the flirting problem. I still haven’t figured out how to speak the Lifestyle Language. In vanilla situations, I come across as polite and engaging. I’m not sure how I come across in lifestyle settings. Perhaps I seem prudish, disinterested, or even stand-offish because I don’t interact with others at what is essentially the lifestyle normal.
And maybe I just can’t. That’s fine.
But obviously the experiences we are having aren’t immersive enough to give me that information.
Alas for the state of the world! I don’t think we are traveling to Mexico any time soon.